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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete, with no merge. This article evinces a complete lack of secondary sources and wider notability (the "Jay Leno" example is particularly instructive). Merging while a debate is ongoing, while not strictly forbidden, is frowned on. In the instant case, since it appears that the merge was done in bad faith specifically in an attempt to derail the AfD, I have deleted the Doctor Eggman article and restored the revisions before the merge, to remove the merge from the article history, and will be warning the user that further such bad-faith merges may result in negative consequences. Nandesuka (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Eggman's flying fortresses

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Dr. Eggman's flying fortresses (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

List of minor fictional elements with no secondary sources, fails WP:N. Near-duplicate of the recently-deleted list of vehicles; possibly a CSD G4 candidate, though I don't have the old list to compare it with; if not, then that AFD is at least precedent for this one. Percy Snoodle (talk) 12:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Comment I'm adding my comment up here, as it seems to have gotten lost in the below kerfluffle - Let me put it this way. Dr. Eggman's flying fortresses are not notable outside the Sonic universe. Conversely, something like the Death Star, is well known and recognizable beyond the confines of the Star Wars Universe. As an example, Jay Leno or any stand-up comedian could make a joke about the Death Star exploding, or Family Guy or Futurama may feature episodes that parody the Death Star. As integral as the flying fortresses may be to the game, that does not translate to real world notability. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is not an issue of whether or not Sonic the Hedgehog is notable, but rather if specific, albeit reoccurring elements of the game series, (i.e. flying fortresses) are themselves notable. Which must be corroborated by referenced verified third party sources. You are right though this information should be captured by a "specialized encyclopedia" hence my suggestion to transwiki to a specific wiki that focuses on th Sonic Universer [1] AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 15:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to the first pillar, Wikipedia is already a specialized encyclopedia and something that is a major recurring element in multiple games tends to be notable. The phrase also gets plenty of Google hits. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's only the case that a major recurring element in multiple games becomes notable if it receives substantial, non-trivial independent secondary coverage. The fortresses haven't, so they're not notable. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They have had sufficient coverage for a paperless encyclopedia that contains elements of a general encyclopedias, specialized encyclopedias, and alamanacs, and that is only a few years old. They are still making Sonic games, and so the notability of its elements and coverage just keeps expanding. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is zero sourced coverage except for some dodgy screencaps. Zero coverage is not enough to meet WP:N. No amount of game-publishing by the creators will change that. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me put it this way. Dr. Eggman's flying fortresses are not notable outside the Sonic universe. Conversely, something like the Death Star, is well known and recognizable beyond the confines of the Star Wars Universe. As an example, Jay Leno or any stand-up comedian could make a joke about the Death Star exploding, or Family Guy or Futurama may feature episodes that parody the Death Star. As integral as the flying fortresses may be to the game, that does not translate to real world notability. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They have notability to millions of people around the real world. For Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit and that is also a specialized encyclopedia, we can afford to have articles on topics that are not as notable as the Death Star, but that still have some degree of notability in their own right. The appearances of these things in multiple mainstream games make it more than just a minor item. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It they're notable "to millions of people around the real world", then there will be coverage from a real-world perspective. That's what's required to demonstrate notability; dodgy screencaps aren't sufficient. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is coverage from a real world perspective, we just need editors to spend constructive time adding these sources, that we know exist, rather than wasting time just trying to remove the articles. Scores of books and magazine articles cover various Sonic related topics. We are not talking about a minor aspect of a minor game, but rather a significant aspect of a whole series of games, cartoons, comics, strategy guides, etc. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you can prove that by adding sources of coverage, fine, I'll change my vote. If not, then the article continues to fail WP:N and continues to require deletion. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have already indicated the wealth of sources available on Sonic the Hedgehog related topic, but it will take time to go through these sources and expand the article. Fortunately, though, Wikipedia does not have any kind of deadline and so we can keep the article, now that we know sources exist, and allow our editors the opportunity to make the most of these sources. Nothing "requires" deletion unless it is a hoax, personal attack, or copy vio. So long as there is some evidence of notability and a reasonable possibility that sources exist, Wikipedia is not somehow degraded by having a stub or incomplete article. Our project as a whole is a work in progress anyway. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't added any sources to the article, so it still fails WP:N. You've linked to some product pages on amazon, but not demonstrated that any coverage specifically of flying fortresses exists. If you believe it does, ask to have this page userified; when you've added the sources you're welcome to recreate the article. Percy Snoodle (talk) 09:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You have made not effort to improve the article in any constructive fashion, but instead are focusing way too much time attempting to get an article that you simply don't like deleted. Imagine if instead that energy was spent helping to improve the article and I have provided links to plenty of sources that can be used to reference the artilce. I encourage you to go through some of them to see what you can find. Regards, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that I don't like it, it's that it's not-notable. If you had spent a small fraction of your energy in actually addig the sources that you claim exist to the article, I'd have changed my vote. The links you provide are all about Sonic or at best Eggman; none of them are specifically about the fortresses. Percy Snoodle (talk) 10:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But it is notable and references have been found and the article has been improved since the AfD began; I don't know why you are ignoring that and being dishonest by claiming you would change your "vote" (this is not a vote by the way, which further shows you do not understand how AfDs work). As a sub-article on the Sonic series, the sources do not have to be 100% about flying fortresses. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article may have been improved, but no reliable sources have been added. Until they are, it fails WP:N. You claiming it's notable doesn't make it so. I've changed my vote in the past when I've been shown to be wrong, but in order to do so sources of coverage which substantially cover - not necessarily 100%, but for the most part - Eggman's flying fortresses. Percy Snoodle (talk) 07:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's plenty of sourced coverage in the totality of gaming magazines and strategy guides on the market. We just need to give our editors time to mine these sources. We've only been in existence for a few years. It takes time time adequately reference articles. Because we know sources are indeed out there, we need to allow our community time to make the most of them. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If that's the case, then you can copy this article to a Sonic wiki, and copy it back when you have the sources. In the mean time, it fails WP:N and should be deleted. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, in the meantime, we should leave the article in place, so that editors have something to work with as sources are found and utilized. There is absolutely no logical reason to delete the article and certainly no reason that actually makes Wikipedia a better reference guide. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but that's not wikipedia policy. If you think it's illogical, I suggest you bring that up at WP:DEL. Percy Snoodle (talk) 16:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My opinion is policy, in fact it's the First pillar of our policy and also our oldest policy we ever had. Policies trump guidelines. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, your opinion isn't policy. WP:DEL is policy. You misinterpret the pillar, and ignore the other policies. Percy Snoodle (talk) 17:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. Wikipedia:Five pillars and Ignore All Rules are very much policies. Please do not ignore them. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not; but none of the policies and guidelines you mention say the article shouldn't be deleted if it fails WP:N. It is you who are ignoring WP:DEL. Percy Snoodle (talk) 09:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It passes our notability guidelines, but fails any reason to be deleted. Five pillars and Ignore All Rules both say the article must be kept. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That you're using "Ignore All Rules" as a reason to keep boggles the mind. Percy Snoodle (talk) 10:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That you want to delete a useful and interesting article boggles the mind. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That the two of you continue to bicker and repeat yourself boggles the mind. You've both made your cases, now lets leave that dead horse alone. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 22:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Merge into Doctor Eggman. 99.230.152.143 (talk) 16:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: In normal circumstances I would agree with you Pixelface. However, in an instance where the issue is clearly being actively debated, and it closely aligned with an active AFD it would make sense to be judicious in any content merging decisions. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 01:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen (and you probably have too) many AFDs speedily closed due to information being merged into another article. It's a fairly common practice. If the argument it between delete or merge and it has been proven that said information can, in fact, be merged with little to no problems, then just what is left for us to discuss? -- Jelly Soup (talk) 02:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, my stance is to delete, and possibly transwiki. I do not believe this content is notable outside of the Sonic universe as it lacks real world verifiability. I was speaking to the process of merging content, not as to whether or not I support the actual content being merged. Sorry for the confusion there. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 02:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any advantage for Wikipedia in deletion, as this is a notable aspect of a major game series backed by verfiable sources. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I see you've argued that point several times already in this AFD. I already provided my reasoning above. Sorry, but I don't engage in this "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" thing. You've made your case, as have I. I was clarifying my standpoint for the sake of Jelly Soup. Thanks. AtaruMoroboshi (talk) 03:35, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - no assertion of notability through independent sources. No rationale for justifying this as a spinoff article under WP:FICT due to this list being nothing more than a long line of in-universe WP:GAMECRUFT. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 04:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/Transwiki - Dr. Eggman has flying fortresses, that's an important part of the character, but specific descriptions of each fortress are not necessary (a brief list witin Dr. Eggman's article with simple characteristics would be fine). There's two issues here. Part of this is WP:FICT - while Dr. Eggman's article is notable, and thus there's a reasonable cause for a spinout article for non-notable elements, this list is putting a lot of undue weight on the fortress list, particularly in that the fortresses have little to do with the Dr. Eggman characer directly. The second aspect is that the approach this article is written it is too much in-universe, and describes, in some cases, how the fortress is defeated (WP is not a game guide) and in other cases, is re-iterating plot elements from specific games. If you take these elements out, remove some of the speculation that's present, you'll have a much tighter list -- The list and fortress names can be kept (redirects in place) if each fortress is given 2-3 lines, and then that table would fit nicely into the Dr. Eggman page (presently as I write this, someone copied it verbatim). Transwiki the rest to a Sonic wiki (I'm sure there is one), and you still provide the coverage of the fortresses but in a manner more appropriate for an encyclopedic treatment. --MASEM 05:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge/Transwiki per User:Masem above, with major emphasis on pruning content upon merging. --PeruvianLlama(spit) 08:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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